An Exclusive Interview

with Bruce Lipton

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Dr. Bruce Lipton is an internationally recognized authority in bridging science and spirit. He has been a guest speaker on dozens of TV and radio shows, as well as keynote presenter for national conferences. We all know the connection between the mind and body is the key to health and here is the science that proves how holistic health therapies work!

Recent advances in cellular science are heralding an important evolutionary turning point. For almost fifty years we have held the illusion that our health and fate were preprogrammed in our genes, a concept referred to as genetic determinacy . Though mass consciousness is currently imbued with the belief that the character of one’s life is genetically predetermined, a radically new understanding is unfolding at the leading edge of science.

Cellular biologists now recognize that the environment and more importantly, our perception of the environment, directly controls the activity of our genes. So as you read and comprehend what is being said here, be prepared to be inspired and at the same time, have your mind engaged in a way that only hard science and a passionate spirit can accomplish.

BL: The new evolution that the new biology is suggesting is one that is repeating patterns of self-similarity; it’s a fractal*. And the significance of the fractal is that if you can understand the previous half of what happened at that time, you can apply the character to what’s happening at this time

LG: Right, like the Fibonacci patterns** found in nature?

BL: Right, so basically what it says is this. The evolution of human civilization is like that of a giant organism, where we are the cells in that organism. And its relevance is that civilization evolved in the same way as an animal; we go through evolutionary phases, which are redundant to previous evolution patterns. For example, for the vertebrate animals the pattern was fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, and there was an evolutionary jump each time. We’re in a jump now between a reptilian-based civilization and a mammalian-based civilization, and we’re currently headed by reptiles. And yet mammals such as yourself and myself are in the process of rewriting a way of civilization that’s different from the one we have now. The reptiles are conscious but not self-conscious. What that means is that they will live for the moment but they don’t have any vision about what the hell next week is going to do.

LG: Not much abstract thinking in that state of being.

BL: A perfect example is going to war in Iraq with no plans of what to do six weeks later. That is an excellent example of reptilian thinking. The mammalian civilization is a very different one because the character of mammals is nurturing, and the fact of nurturing means nurturing the planet, and right now we’re like dinosaurs raping the planet.

Well, we mammals started this a long time ago, and in fact, I think it was actually seeded in 1969 when we were in the bird phase – the bird phase was Wilbur and Orville Wright getting off the ground until its fullest evolution, when we landed on the moon, and we took a picture of the earth. When we took a picture of the earth in 1969 and it was sent back here, it changed the mindset for a lot of people: “Oh my God, that’s all there is. We have got to take care of that.” And that’s when all of a sudden we got the idea to take care of the air, the water, and all of that came from political decisions. And that’s because there were enough people who were mammalian in character saying that we must take care of those things for our future so they’ll be there.

And so we’re working on this, and it’s been an uphill battle, and it’s coming to a point where the dinosaurs (the president and his political followers) – it’s going to crack. In the past, the dinosaurs went through waves of extinction, something happened, and we’re about to hit something that will turn under the current system so it can’t survive.

And then a new system, a mammalian-based one, will come out of the ashes of that, but you can’t have a mammalian-based system until the other one crashes, so that means you have to sit here and keep preparing for the future and also recognizing while you’re doing this that all around you things are going to look pretty chaotic.

LG: As you probably know, in most chaotic systems there are hidden patterns that can be seen if you’re not consumed by fear.

BL: Well, that’s exactly what it is and that’s where the fractal geometry comes in. Because the fractals are based on this chaos and that order comes out of the chaos and that we’ll go from the reptilian structure through chaos and then evolve to a mammalian structure.

LG. Call me an incorrigible optimist, but that’s the vision I see. OK, here’s the first question: You say in your book, Biology of Belief, that by giving the “energy-based” environment its due, it provides the foundation for the science and philosophy of complementary medicine and the spiritual wisdom of the ancient and modern faiths as well as for allopathic medicine. Could you explain what you mean by that, and how does that unify complementary medicine, spiritual wisdom, and allopathic medicine?

BL: The first thing to recognize is that each one of these modalities – complementary, allopathic, and spiritual – is based on a philosophy of how life works. The philosophy that the allopathic community holds is that life is the consequence of a Newtonian matter-based machine. So when they look at the body it’s certainly based on matter; that’s all it is. If you understand the physical pieces, you’ll understand why life works, how it works, and you can make physical pieces called drugs to fix it. So their whole premise is that life is a physical machine and energy is not relevant to the function of the machine.

Then, we go to complementary medicine, and complementary philosophy says that energy goes through the system – the chakras, the meridians. It’s an energy-based system, which is not the same as the material-based system of Newtonians. And so it emphasizes that to understand how the body works, you really should understand the nature of the energy flowing though the system. That’s what complementary medicine is all about.

And then you get to the spiritual, and its philosophy is somewhat akin to the complementary, but the complementary has a bit more of a mixing of the physical and the energetic, and it uses some allopathic understanding as well. And then you get to the spiritual baseline: Just forget the whole physical concept and get on with the fact that there’s an energy running this mechanism – spirit, an invisible force.

Three philosophies: The first one, allopathic, is Newtonian. The spiritual one is based on quantum theory. And the complementary is in the middle, because it has both the quantum and Newtonian natures. Now remember that physics and quantum mechanics are the same thing. So if quantum physics and quantum mechanics are the same thing, then when we talk about physics, we are actually talking about mechanics, the mechanism of how things work.

The first mechanistic approach was the Newtonian approach, when he made the mathematics to calculate the movements of the heavenly spheres. But the significance is that when he made these calculations, he didn’t use energy in the equations, or God, or spirit, he just used the physical parameters of the measuring of the planet. The result is that if he can predict the movement of the planet by measuring only the physical parameters, there are no other variables. So the mechanistic approach says, “I can understand the universe by just measuring the physical part.”

Quantum physics, on the other hand, reversed that fundamental belief in 1925. It reversed the conventional Newtonian thinking by saying, “You know those particles that you thought were the smallest physical things – called atoms? Well, guess what, they’re made out of energy.” And so all of a sudden we’re saying, “No.” Newtonians say the world is a mechanical place. And the quantum physicists come back and say, “Nope. It’s really based on energy.” And yet there is a combination where the two come together; just because quantum physics replaces Newtonian physics doesn’t mean that Newton’s laws were wrong. So there are levels where you can understand the world through a Newtonian eye and then there are levels where you must really go back and look at the quantum.

LG: Yes, in physics it seems like extreme speed and gravity determine when Newton’s laws break down.

BL: Yes, because it’s not based on energy, which is a whole different realm of speed compared to the physical world.

So at this point we can say that in our world, things that are large in size, like cells and bigger, can to some degree be understood by using the physical laws of Newton. But when you get down to the level of cells and smaller, where you’re dealing with molecules and atoms, that’s where the quantum realm comes in. So, now we go back to allopathic medicine, which deals with the physical – what it wants to look at are the big physical things that make up life; the cells make the tissues, and the tissues make the organs, and so on. So with Newtonian blinders on, all they see are physical things, the molecules. So they see a molecular machine, and when it’s not working, that implies some molecules are wrong.

And therefore their vision is, “Oh. Well, if the molecules are not working right, then throw in a new molecule.” And that’s called drugs. So they’re healing from that mechanistic point of view. Yet on the other hand, and this is an important point, for the things that really bother us, when we’re talking about what medicine does and doesn’t do and emphasizing the failures of medicine, we should also emphasize the value of medicine.

Medicine has an understanding of the large physical character of the body, the cells, the tissues and organs. The study of cells is where they’re off-base a bit. But organs, how they work, and tissues, how they work, they understand, so if I break or traumatize my physical body, they have an awareness of repairing those physical structures like tissues and organs.

They can rebuild tissues and they can rebuild organs and transplant organs and fix bones and all these things. That’s trauma. They do miracles with trauma and that’s where, if you get in an accident and break your leg, you want a medical doctor.

But now we go to the flip side. When there’s a dysfunction at the cellular level we, the mechanisms that control the expression of the cell, shift from the Newtonian world to the quantum world.

So, if there’s something like a cancer, and you say, “Well, cancer is a dysfunction.” Yeah, but it started within a cell, it didn’t get hit with a baseball bat or anything, like trauma. It started as a function within a cell; something went wrong. Diabetes – something in the molecules of the cell membrane went wrong. Or Alzheimer’s, something in the psychoskeletal structure within the cell went wrong. When it comes to the cellular level, we’ve really jumped to a different understanding. At the level of cells, if you really want to know what’s going on there, the Newtonian principals break down. That’s where we start to enter the realm of energy influences. The molecules that make things work are influenced by energy fields, not by baseball bats. This is where traditional allopathic medicine is pretty much lost, and the reason is they’re still looking at this as a biochemical machine controlled by genes and therefore something has to be wrong at the mechanical end. And yet at the cellular level, you also have to look at the energetic influences. The energy’s very important down there. So they have no vision of energy because they’re Newtonians.

LG: I like how they change the word alternative to complementary; it’s actually a little more in line with what you’re saying.

BL: Absolutely, because we’re going to put the energy and the matter back together and then all of a sudden you have an awareness that you didn’t have before.

So basically we’re entering into the quantum world – it says energy fields profoundly influence the structure and function of molecules, and there’s lots of evidence that energy fields like electromagnetic fields and prayer influence things.

Research has shown that everybody’s mind is broadcasting frequencies that you can read outside the skull. What’s relevant is that your energy frequencies are not contained within your body. You’re like a tuning fork walking down the street, vibrating frequencies. If you get enough people to vibrate in harmony, then the power of that frequency reaches the quantity that is powerful enough to move things.

LG: Something we’ve noticed lately is a synergy in our community when like-minded people come together.

BL: Absolutely. Cohering, once you start getting two people, you get a dramatic increase in coherence over any individual person. It’s not one plus one is two; it’s one plus one is some larger number all of a sudden.

LG: It’s interesting that you would mention coherence. My wife and I did neural feedback training and the moment we could reach coherence in our brain hemispheres, it was like a different ballgame altogether.

BL: Well, that’s an important part because that coherence in the hemispheres is virtually akin to getting prepared for a state of superlearning. And that’s real important when you want to change the belief that runs your show; you need to enter that superlearning to download that data.

LG: Well, maybe this takes us to our next question.

BL: OK. So did we answer that question?

LG: I think we’ve covered that one. But I could sit here for hours and talk to you, Bruce.

BL: I know, but we have to do this so you have something to work with that won’t mind-boggle people.

LG: OK, next question is: As I look at some of the other sciences, like physics for instance, I’ve noticed a trend to view life, and our existence in it, as a more cooperative relationship. I also see in your view of cellular life this same tendency. Do you think this is an indication that we as human beings are evolving into a higher level of human consciousness?

BL: The answer is absolutely yes and it deals with the parallels that occur as to why we got here, and we got here after… For the first three billion years of life on this planet, all there were were single cells. While they appeared to be like individual living entities, over time they actually learned how to communicate across space with each other. So bacteria, even though they look – oh, here’s a bacterium and there’s a bacterium, in fact they’re probably part of a community. All the microorganisms are living in a community. And the community is based on the fact that they exchange information with each other through chemicals, some sending out chemicals and other ones responding. These chemicals reflect the status of life or information so others in the community can get information or know what’s going on in the community. And the reason why we have intelligence is because evolution is based on an expanding awareness. Some people like to say there is no direction to evolution, but indeed there really is. Evolution is an explosion like the Big Bang. It starts at a certain point but it doesn’t go in one direction like a ladder – you know, like evolution is a ladder and there’s a low rung and a high rung. It’s actually a sphere, and what it does is it fills space. And in evolution cells fill the spaces.

And while there was a lateral progression, to the left and to the right, we didn’t really elevate. But at some point when you’re building left and right, then the next step is to elevate. One of the characteristics that’s uniform throughout the entire spectrum of evolution is the more complex an organism is, the more awareness there is.

So from the evolution of prokaryote to eukaryote, one of the obvious things to look at is the increase in membrane; there’s 100,000 times more membrane in a eukariotic cell than there is in a bacterium. Remember, it’s not the genes that control but it’s the cell membranes. The only membrane in a bacterium is just the outer skin. When you look at the higher-level cells, you’ve got all those things: organelles, mitochondria, nucleus, Golgi, endoplasmic reticulum, things like that. All those are membrane-derivative. And so what it means is more membrane, more awareness. But then there’s a point where you can’t make the membrane any bigger because then you’re dealing with the physical pressure of fluid inside a bag. There’s a certain amount of fluid pressure on the membrane – if it gets too big, the bag can’t hold it, sort of like a water balloon. And so there’s a point in realism that says that to make a viable functional cell, it’ll reach a certain size and if it gets any bigger than that, you can’t hold the membrane together. It’ll break and then the cell’s dead. So that’s why evolution went from prokaryote to eukaryote. Three billion years. You know – maximize the fullest evolution of a single organism because the most awareness in a single cell gives us the most evolutionary advantage. But then we reach that parameter that says if I add any more membrane now, I jeopardize my viability because it could rupture. And so it ended; it said, “That’s it. I can’t make it any smarter; the organism, the cell cannot be any smarter and stay viable.”

So evolution, in our perception of it, seemed to have flattened out – it’s got all these single cells. The next level of evolution was, “Well, if I have, as a cell, X amount of awareness, and you are a cell, with X amount of awareness, and you and I can plug in together, and we can share directly our awareness at the same time, then we have collectively two X’s more awareness.” And the relevance of that is the efficiency of cells coming together and coming into community and leading to higher levels of awareness. But a community of cells is recognized by the shape the cells take. So one group of cells is called amoeba, a single-celled amoeba, and a group of them might be called a hydra. Another, a larger group, might be a clam. A bigger group might be a cat. And a larger group of them might be a human. It’s a community, and looks like an organism, and we give the name of the organism to the shape of the community. And so in our bodies are 50 trillion cells communicating. For what? Advanced evolution. Over the millions and millions of years since the origin of multicellullar organisms, the destination was to make the smartest organism.

Well, then, the smartest cells join together to make a bigger organization and then you get the smartest organization, which is us in a sense, but it may not be – because, probably dolphins – but the significance of this is we’ve maxed our evolution. It’s like, “OK, you’ve maxed out; you’re given the exact brain that you have within a living organism, and it’s maximum efficiency of awareness.” Maximum. What does that mean? Well, then it seems like, “OK then, that’s the end of human evolution.” And the fact is, that when we had single cells, what did they do? They joined up in a community to share their evolution. We have single humans. What do they do? Well, they join up with other humans to do what? To share their awareness. So the point is, we are creating a higher level where we are the cells in a larger organism called humanity.

LG: It’s interesting how we are manifesting that in our outer world as libraries, postal services, and now the Internet.

BL: Oh, the Internet especially, because that’s what cells mostly did; they were able to instantly connect to the same information at the same time so that a skin cell, a liver cell, and a bone cell, instantaneously know when you’re having a bad moment.

What this means is that we’re going to have six billion different perceptions giving us a full spectrum of awareness. And so as much as people are fighting it, the reality is an inevitable evolutionary step in which we’re going to leave behind our reptilian individual fight-or-flight behavior, you know, the struggle for existence kind of stuff – Darwin. And the next level of evolution is to recognize that it is a community that creates survival.

LG: And it seems like it takes so many subatomic particles to make an atom, so many atoms to make a molecule, so many molecules to make a cell, and it might take so many people to bring this about.

BL: Well, I think so, because if you look at it, each human is like another eye on the universe. And the more eyes, the more awareness. It’s simple logic. That’s why this is going to be a very quick evolution, because it’s a matter of wiring. The faster the wiring’s in place, the faster an idea runs through the system and changes things. So with all the wiring in place; how long does it take a piece of news to affect the world? When the wiring’s in place, what happened 10 minutes ago is known by everybody on the planet.

LG: One more question here, and then we’ll get to the last question. How do you feel about society’s trend to self-medicate for stress with drugs such as Prozac and Zoloft?

BL: Well, how I feel about that is it is yet another example of a consequence of educating people that they are victims of their machinery. And as a result, we don’t take responsibility for the experiences we have in our bodies. We blame that on the mechanism that is failing. So, for example, we can talk about cancer and say, “What’s wrong?” “Oh, the mechanism is defective and that’s why it happened.” And the reality is, less than 5 percent of cancer is hereditary in the first place; 95 percent of cancer is due to how a person lives his or her life.

It’s the same situation with cardiovascular disease. When you have a heart attack, does that mean you had a bad heart? No, it just means you were a lousy driver and you stressed the hell out of the system. Taking a drug is tantamount to taking your car and putting masking tape over all the gauges because you don’t want to see what the gauges say. But the problem is, somewhere down the road you’re going to have a steaming burned-out mess.

And the reality is that anyone who takes a drug to cover up the symptoms never really gets to what the cause of the symptom is, they just took away the expression of the symptom.

LG: This is good information for people to really start reevaluating their lives and their actions and responsibilities. In the movie What the Bleep Do We Know, they said that most of our bad decisions are simply because we have bad information, which leads to limiting beliefs that we have about ourselves and reality, most of which is unconscious.

BL: Yes, the way we live our lives, we run most of it on unconscious tapes and our minds are in the future or the past. The dangerous thing is that the tape is being programmed by other peoples’ behavior and not known to us in our consciousness. We have no idea how many of these limiting programs exist. Even if your beliefs are in your conscious mind, it still never changes the program in your subconscious mind. That’s why people have to use so much willpower to override the subconscious mind and that’s where the problem of power comes in, because the subconscious mind is, I think the number is five million times more powerful than the conscious one. I have data in the book on that – 20 million bits of information are processed per second in the subconscious mind; 40 bits of information are processed in the conscious mind.

LG: Which shows you the power of the filtering process created by our beliefs.

BL: Absolutely. It runs the show; psychologists say about 85 percent of the day is run by the programming of your subconscious mind, most of which are limiting programs. Therefore, 85 percent of our life is trying to go uphill against ourselves.

LG. Well, here’s the last question and we’ve already touched upon it because everything we’ve talked about leads to this question: It seems like the quest and the thrust of life is to self-organize into higher and more complex organisms for the soul purpose, that’s soul, s-o-u-l, of evolving into ever-higher levels of awareness and consciousness. Do you see us continuing this process as human beings linking together to form a planetary consciousness?

BL: Well, of course! Gaia, the planet, is a living cell. We are the membrane, we’re the proteins and the membrane, and if you remember the book, the proteins and the membrane are the awareness units. We are like antennas downloading information. And the beautiful part about that is when we wake up and find that we are all in the same organism, that completes the earth as a single living cell. Then, as in all the evolution that led to this point, this single cell (Earth) then joins up with the other cells to share their awareness. And so on and on…

LG: Then we’re talking about galactic consciousness that’s so far beyond even our wildest imagination.

BL: Absolutely. And we have hints that it’s there, but we’re not! And therefore, we’re not able to be in that dialogue with “them” yet. When the earth completes its process, and when the earth is a single mature cell, at that time it will hook up with other mature cells, other planets, with life forms.

LG: The same way that cells hooked up to make molecules . . .

BL: It’s a fractal thing . . . it’s implied that it must go that way.

LG: It’s an exciting time to be alive, isn’t it Bruce?

BL: It is because, well, it’s exciting for both sides of the split, one side for us because we see the possibilities of the future, and we’re living in the light. As for the other people, they’re certainly locked in their fear of death and the struggle, and the point is, when it comes down to it, one side’s going to walk away from this and be whole and the other side’s going to have to die because that’s their vision. And I like it that we’re on the side of the light.

LG: So do I, Bruce, so do I, and you know what? I think it’s really great that you’re putting out information like this. Validation somehow expands our awareness, which in turn gives us the courage to evolve past outdated beliefs.

BL: Likewise, what you’re doing in your community adds to this awareness; to get every cell to turn its light on is what creates evolution, so we’re all doing this together.

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